There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. This is
almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. Many of us go
through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
Alarm" be at least as useful? Setting aside how it might be
implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), I can
imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
might or might not take into account IAS. It would simply give a
distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. Yes, we slip on
final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
turn to base or final.

Thoughts?

Matt

On Nov 7, 1:07*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> turn to base or final.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Matt

I disagree. A slipping turn can be very useful.
They are not inherrently unsafe, unlike a skidding turn which is very
unsafe.
UH

On Nov 7, 10:07*am, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> turn to base or final.

Why?

Bart

On Nov 7, 10:07*am, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> turn to base or final.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Matt

I am currently working on a laser-holographic analog to digital
optical reader converter module to interface with the "solar self-
powered MKIV high tech yaw string". Just a few more details to iron
out, such as were to mount the Honda generator, but it'll be ready
soon!

A quick glance at the conveniently located yaw string (even the old
fashioned taped-on kind) should give one a hint that they are grossly
"crossed up" . . . no?

bumper

On Nov 7, 10:48*am, brtlmj > wrote:
> On Nov 7, 10:07*am, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> > final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> > turn to base or final.
>
> Why?
>
> Bart

I think Matt meant a skid alarm, not a slip alarm. Slipping turns are
ok, and even a good method to loose altitude. But skid alarm sounds
like a good idea. I would not necessarily limit it to open spoilers
since if one is low on base to final when those accidents usually
happen, they would likely close the spoilers or did not deploy them at
all.

Ramy

Possibly useful and not too difficult to implement.

One could argue a $.00001 bit of yarn does essentially the same thing
but those who pay attention to it - and their airspeed - aren't the
ones who spin in.

On Nov 7, 11:07*am, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> turn to base or final.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Matt

On Nov 7, 10:42*am, wrote:
> On Nov 7, 1:07*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> > in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> > almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> > through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> > prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> > Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> > implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> > imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> > might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> > distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> > final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> > turn to base or final.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> > Matt
>
> I disagree. A slipping turn can be very useful.
> They are not inherrently unsafe, unlike a skidding turn which is very
> unsafe.
> UH

One could argue that coming out of a slipping turn is the same as
skidding momentarily. The inside wing slows down and runs the risk of
stalling. But I think we are getting caught up in the nuances. I
also agree a bit of yarn works, if you are paying attention, but there
are a lot of things that may demand more attention in pattern. Many
of them quite unpredictable. People spin in. That we can all agree
on. Staying coordinated and fast enough would prevent it. Hopefully
we can agree on that. The question is, is there any value in another
indication that we are uncoordinated?

On Nov 7, 12:58*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> On Nov 7, 10:42*am, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 7, 1:07*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> > > in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> > > almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> > > through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> > > prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> > > Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> > > implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> > > imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> > > might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> > > distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> > > final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> > > turn to base or final.
>
> > > Thoughts?
>
> > > Matt
>
> > I disagree. A slipping turn can be very useful.
> > They are not inherrently unsafe, unlike a skidding turn which is very
> > unsafe.
> > UH
>
> One could argue that coming out of a slipping turn is the same as
> skidding momentarily. *The inside wing slows down and runs the risk of
> stalling. *But I think we are getting caught up in the nuances. *I
> also agree a bit of yarn works, if you are paying attention, but there
> are a lot of things that may demand more attention in pattern. *Many
> of them quite unpredictable. *People spin in. *That we can all agree
> on. *Staying coordinated and fast enough would prevent it. *Hopefully
> we can agree on that. *The question is, is there any value in another
> indication that we are uncoordinated?

A simple implementation would be just two pressure ports on the sides
of the nose connected together with a reed noisemaker. In a skid or
slip, the pressure difference would set off the reed reminding the
pilot to pay attention to business.

On Nov 7, 3:33*pm, Bill D > wrote:
> On Nov 7, 12:58*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 7, 10:42*am, wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 7, 1:07*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > > There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> > > > in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> > > > almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> > > > through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> > > > prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> > > > Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> > > > implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> > > > imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> > > > might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> > > > distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> > > > final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> > > > turn to base or final.
>
> > > > Thoughts?
>
> > > > Matt
>
> > > I disagree. A slipping turn can be very useful.
> > > They are not inherrently unsafe, unlike a skidding turn which is very
> > > unsafe.
> > > UH
>
> > One could argue that coming out of a slipping turn is the same as
> > skidding momentarily. *The inside wing slows down and runs the risk of
> > stalling. *But I think we are getting caught up in the nuances. *I
> > also agree a bit of yarn works, if you are paying attention, but there
> > are a lot of things that may demand more attention in pattern. *Many
> > of them quite unpredictable. *People spin in. *That we can all agree
> > on. *Staying coordinated and fast enough would prevent it. *Hopefully
> > we can agree on that. *The question is, is there any value in another
> > indication that we are uncoordinated?
>
> A simple implementation would be just two pressure ports on the sides
> of the nose connected together with a reed noisemaker. *In a skid or
> slip, the pressure difference would set off the reed reminding the
> pilot to pay attention to business.

see youtube for multiple videos of pilots landing apparently
accidentally gear up with gear warning horns blaring...

"what is that noise?????"

That's much too simple. Who'd want to buy something effective, cheap,
light, and simple when we could complicate the daylights out of it?

It needs dual redundant digital signal processors. Ring laser gyros!
Pendulous integrating accelerometers with GPS-based Kalman filter
error bias estimation!. Micromachined piezoelectric pressure
sensors! Adaptive neural network threshold alarms!

If we can't turn this into a multimillion dollar project, we are not
trying hard enough!

>
> A simple implementation would be just two pressure ports on the sides
> of the nose connected together with a reed noisemaker. *In a skid or
> slip, the pressure difference would set off the reed reminding the
> pilot to pay attention to business.

On Nov 7, 1:41*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Nov 7, 3:33*pm, Bill D > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 7, 12:58*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 7, 10:42*am, wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 7, 1:07*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > > > There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> > > > > in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> > > > > almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> > > > > through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> > > > > prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> > > > > Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> > > > > implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> > > > > imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> > > > > might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> > > > > distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> > > > > final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> > > > > turn to base or final.
>
> > > > > Thoughts?
>
> > > > > Matt
>
> > > > I disagree. A slipping turn can be very useful.
> > > > They are not inherrently unsafe, unlike a skidding turn which is very
> > > > unsafe.
> > > > UH
>
> > > One could argue that coming out of a slipping turn is the same as
> > > skidding momentarily. *The inside wing slows down and runs the risk of
> > > stalling. *But I think we are getting caught up in the nuances. *I
> > > also agree a bit of yarn works, if you are paying attention, but there
> > > are a lot of things that may demand more attention in pattern. *Many
> > > of them quite unpredictable. *People spin in. *That we can all agree
> > > on. *Staying coordinated and fast enough would prevent it. *Hopefully
> > > we can agree on that. *The question is, is there any value in another
> > > indication that we are uncoordinated?
>
> > A simple implementation would be just two pressure ports on the sides
> > of the nose connected together with a reed noisemaker. *In a skid or
> > slip, the pressure difference would set off the reed reminding the
> > pilot to pay attention to business.
>
> see youtube for multiple videos of pilots landing apparently
> accidentally gear up with gear warning horns blaring...
>
> "what is that noise?????"

Yes, bells and whistles only work if you are suspecting something is
wrong. There is that story of the pilot who just fixed his gear alarm,
and when the gear alarm went on the next time he flew, he noted to
himself 'great, the gear alarm is finally working' and proceeded to
land gear up...
Yaw alarm can only be useful if it will be triggered only when
skidding, not slipping, otherwise it will be ignored quickly due to
false alarms.

Ramy

pilot skids a turn in the pattern - skid alarm goes off and they'll
raise the gear.

On 11/7/2011 10:07 AM, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. This is
> almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. Many of us go
> through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> Alarm" be at least as useful? Setting aside how it might be
> implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), I can
> imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> might or might not take into account IAS. It would simply give a
> distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. Yes, we slip on
> final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> turn to base or final.

I'm thinking going too slow is the bigger problem than slipping or
skidding in the pattern. I know I can make a slow, coordinated turn that
very quickly turns into a spin or spiral dive (it has to be a shallow
turn, the kind we worry about). How about a horizon sensor that
proclaims "nose down, nose down, ..." They make sensors like that for
R/C models.

http://www.futaba-rc.com/accessories/futm0999.html

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

I've often thought an audio yaw string would be a great idea.
Especially while instructing. Maybe instead of a noise, a shot of
electricity to the ass would be better? I am always amazed at how
many pilots are perfectly happy to fly along in a slight slip all
day...

Boggs

On Nov 8, 9:44*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> I've often thought an audio yaw string would be a great idea.
> Especially while instructing. *Maybe instead of a noise, a shot of
> electricity to the ass would be better? *I am always amazed at how
> many pilots are perfectly happy to fly along in a slight slip all
> day...
>
> Boggs

Part of me wonders just how much value it would add to have an alarm
go off just when someone is under stress turning to final at low
altitude where it's causing them to try to skid the ship around.

I'd be stating the obvious that pilots should be better trained to not
get themselves into such situations to begin with.

At 15:44 08 November 2011, GARY BOGGS wrote:
>I've often thought an audio yaw string would be a great idea.
>Especially while instructing. Maybe instead of a noise, a shot of
>electricity to the ass would be better? I am always amazed at how
>many pilots are perfectly happy to fly along in a slight slip all
>day...
>
>Boggs
>

There are those who think the string should be slightly off center in a
thermal turn I have heard the phrasae" get the string pointing up"from an
old bold pilot who was flying with me.

On Nov 8, 11:00*am, Jonathon May > wrote:
> At 15:44 08 November 2011, GARY BOGGS wrote:
>
> >I've often thought an audio yaw string would be a great idea.
> >Especially while instructing. *Maybe instead of a noise, a shot of
> >electricity to the ass would be better? *I am always amazed at how
> >many pilots are perfectly happy to fly along in a slight slip all
> >day...
>
> >Boggs
>
> There are those who think the string should be slightly off center in a
> thermal turn I have heard the phrasae" get the string pointing up"from an
> old bold pilot who was flying with me.

Geez, how about a box that starts yelling (think schrewish obnoxious
voice here) DON'T SKID!, SPEED UP!, BANK STEEPER!, WHAT ARE YOU
DOING!!!! when you get below 500'...

Seriously, it's really all about angle of attack (again). Repeating
myself, I loved the aural AOA tones in the old F-4; you could fly the
whole pattern to touchdown without ever looking at airspeed just by
listening to the varying AOA tone (and pretty much had to from the
back seat due to the abysmal visibilty and placement of the
intruments). We are used to listening to tones when thermalling -
hook up an AOA sensor to a tone generator, active only with the gear
down and/or spoilers open, and vary the tone based on AOA - lift tones
for too fast, no tone for on speed (with a deadband), sink tones
(LOUD) when too slow. Since it would be based on AOA, it would
automatically adjust for varying gross weight. If you want to be
really exotic, enable a manual wind input to move the on-speed
deadband faster so you can set you pattern speed for winds and
gusts...

Or, JUST FLY THE STUPID GLIDER and let Darwin sort it out!

Kirk
66

PS: I'm one of those who thermal with a bit of a slip. Dick Johnson
did too. Works for me in my LS6.

On Nov 7, 10:07*am, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> turn to base or final.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Matt

How about a sticky note on the instrument panel that
say's.............Hey You, don't make any slow uncoordinated turns
from base to final...........OK?

Brad

On 11-8-2011 16:45, Westbender wrote:

>
> Part of me wonders just how much value it would add to have an alarm
> go off just when someone is under stress turning to final at low
> altitude where it's causing them to try to skid the ship around.
>
> I'd be stating the obvious that pilots should be better trained to not
> get themselves into such situations to begin with.

Well, us powered jockies have an advantage over glider jockies...if the
approach is crappy, add power and go around and give it another go (as
many times as necessary to get it right. Until we ourselves become
glider pilots after too many go arounds!)

On 11-8-2011 17:00, Jonathon May wrote:

>
> There are those who think the string should be slightly off center in a
> thermal turn I have heard the phrasae" get the string pointing up"from an
> old bold pilot who was flying with me.
>
>
I was taught there weren't any of those guys around ;)

On 11-8-2011 18:43, kirk.stant wrote:

>
> Geez, how about a box that starts yelling (think schrewish obnoxious
> voice here) DON'T SKID!, SPEED UP!, BANK STEEPER!, WHAT ARE YOU
> DOING!!!! when you get below 500'...


Maybe I can get my wife to supply the voice.

OUCH! What'd ya do that for??? #@$&!!@

;)

An Electronic Slip Detector would be quite easy to construct using contacts
either side of the T+S 'slip-ball'. It would have to have one tone for a
deflection to the left and a different tone for the right.

As for the universal Slip-String, remember, it only shows if the front of
the glider is slipping.... the tailplane is most likely doing something
else !

Pete

At 19:06 08 November 2011, Brad wrote:
>On Nov 7, 10:07=A0am, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
>> There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
>> in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. =A0This is
>> almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. =A0Many of us go
>> through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
>> prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
>> Alarm" be at least as useful? =A0Setting aside how it might be
>> implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), =A0I can
>> imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
>> might or might not take into account IAS. =A0 It would simply give a
>> distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. =A0Yes, we slip on
>> final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
>> turn to base or final.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Matt
>
>How about a sticky note on the instrument panel that
>say's.............Hey You, don't make any slow uncoordinated turns
>from base to final...........OK?
>
>Brad
>

On Nov 7, 1:07*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> turn to base or final.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Matt

I had a Yaw String alarm once. It worked great, his name was Larry.
It's amazing what enough yelling from the back seat will make you stop
doing. Sometime later during check ride a Designated Examiner asked
me to skid the airplane in a turn at a safe altitude, and I had a
difficult time doing it correctly. My favorite Yaw String Story was
when an instructor announced "My Aircraft" and took over the controls
briefly and then gave them back to the student without further
explanation. During the post flight debriefing the student inquired
as to why the aircraft was taken away from him. The instructor's
reply was "Oh I just wanted to check the Yaw String, to make sure it
wasn't broken".

On Nov 8, 5:34*pm, SF > wrote:
> On Nov 7, 1:07*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > There has been much needed focus on safety in our ranks recently, and
> > in particular the risk of spinning during the turn to final. *This is
> > almost always caused by slow, uncoordinated flight. *Many of us go
> > through the trouble of installing an electronic gear up warning to
> > prevent a costly, but less dangerous gear-up landing. Wouldn't a "Slip
> > Alarm" be at least as useful? *Setting aside how it might be
> > implemented for the moment (and there are many possibilities), *I can
> > imagine something that was activated when the spoilers were out, and
> > might or might not take into account IAS. * It would simply give a
> > distinct tone or alarm with a certain degree of yaw. *Yes, we slip on
> > final on purpose all the time, but we better not be doing it in the
> > turn to base or final.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> > Matt
>
> I had a Yaw String alarm once. *It worked great, his name was Larry.
> It's amazing what enough yelling from the back seat will make you stop
> doing. *Sometime later during check ride a Designated Examiner asked
> me to skid the airplane in a turn at a safe altitude, and I had a
> difficult time doing it correctly. *My favorite Yaw String Story was
> when an instructor announced "My Aircraft" and took over the controls
> briefly and then gave them back to the student without further
> explanation. *During the post flight debriefing the student inquired
> as to why the aircraft was taken away from him. *The instructor's
> reply was "Oh I just wanted to check the Yaw String, to make sure it
> wasn't broken".- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I do find it extremely irritating when the yaw string gets stuck while
in the air. Years ago when flying my ASK-14 out of Hope BC I took off,
noticed it was wrapped around the B-tube, so I landed, untangled it
and took off again............I heard about that from the guys there
for the rest of that trip............something to the effect of an
"elitist"!

Brad

I realize that anything can happen to anyone at any time, especially while flying. Failure to maintain adequate flying speed, failure to properly coordinate a turn, flying with ones head up ones rectum all can lead to problems resulting in disaster, but aren't we carrying this to an extreme?

I am far from the most experienced glider pilot on this forum and I certainly don't have the technical, engineering or assembly background to create a device such as suggested herein but it would appear that we are trying to complicate the passage of bowel gas. I've seen my yaw string depart during flight, I've flown with a malfunctioning airspeed indicator, I've flown with the thrill or victory, the agony of defeat and the heart break of psoriasis, all without losing control.

To be honest when I started flying gliders I was surprised that there was no stall warning indicator. It would appear to me that such a warning would be preferable to a yaw warning. What I love about flying a glider is that by and large it is seat of the pants flying but the seats of our pants are becoming less and less sensitive as we rely more and more on items that will inform us when our flying skills are below the line.

While I am in favor of anything that will improve safety, especially when in proximity to other gliders I am wary of becoming dependent on things which replace simplicity with complexity. Besides, the glider port at which I fly has about 500 yards of yarn and plenty of tape. Thank you very much.

BTW, I like Karl S's idea of adding 10 knots to your pattern speed every decade. Some of you would now be doing 120 when you turn final.

Walt

Walt

Jonathon wrote............
> Part of me wonders just how much value it would add to have an alarm
> go off just when someone is under stress turning to final at low
> altitude where it's causing them to try to skid the ship around.

I'm with you Jonathon, an alarm at a critical time may just add to the
confusion (panic) I remember the gal that released from tow at 1000
feet, then tried to land doing something like 100 knots! She overflew
the entire length of the runway, then tried to make a
180.................stalled and killed herself! Her oxygen bottle had
been turned off after she check it for normal operation. leaving just
enough O2 in the line to run the M&H regulator for a few
minutes...........then it sounded the "low O2 pressure" alarm. Not
being all that familiar with O2 use, she panicked thinking it was
essentioal.

Just fly the airplane, most experienced glider-guiders can feel when
the ship is being flown too slow.............listen to what it is
telling you. I have twice gotten too slow turning final (both times
doing an off-field landing). The H-301 started to shudder (low
elevator was getting dirty air coming off the wing). In the LS-6, I
checked the landing spot while flying about 45 knots, then lowered
the gear, pulled on landing flaps, cracked the spoilers and turned
down-wind. The ship mushed and I got a wing rock....................It
was telling me that I needed to add some speed before deploying all
the draggies.
Just fly the airplane,
JJ

In article >,
Walt Connelly > wrote:

>
> BTW, I like Karl S's idea of adding 10 knots to your pattern speed every
> decade. Some of you would now be doing 120 when you turn final.
>
> Walt
>
> Walt

I am doing 120 when I turn final...if I am flying a 2-32!

Hey! Why don't we re-visit the AOA string on the side of the canopy?
Tick marks for pattern, best L/D, and stall? Bumper, can your Mk IV
Yaw string be adapted for use as a Mk IV AOA String? And put one on
each side as your heads up display for left or right patterns?

In all seriousness, too close to stall is far worse than not perfectly
coordinated. If you combine the two, well you might have a bad day.
Really don't think a new audible warning system for a skid is a good
thing.

Just throwing in another 2 cents worth.
-Steve Leonard

I think the logical evolution would be a "Takeoff Warning". It would sense
tension on the tow rope and begin yelling, "Warning! You are about to
takeoff! Any lack of skill or cunning, lapse in judgment, or poor attitude
will place you at risk of severe injury or death!"

Then any sane pilot would simply pull the release and go home safely. If
there are still those dumb enough to actually attempt to fly one of these
unsafe contraptions, an upgrade to the system could be programmed to pull
the release automatically.

C'mon people - just fly the aircraft. Competence can never be replaced by
safety devices.


"Steve Leonard" > wrote in message
...
> Hey! Why don't we re-visit the AOA string on the side of the canopy?
> Tick marks for pattern, best L/D, and stall? Bumper, can your Mk IV
> Yaw string be adapted for use as a Mk IV AOA String? And put one on
> each side as your heads up display for left or right patterns?
>
> In all seriousness, too close to stall is far worse than not perfectly
> coordinated. If you combine the two, well you might have a bad day.
> Really don't think a new audible warning system for a skid is a good
> thing.
>
> Just throwing in another 2 cents worth.
> -Steve Leonard

On 11/10/2011 7:06 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

> C'mon people - just fly the aircraft. Competence can never be replaced
> by safety devices.

Maybe not this particular device, but we all should know that statement
is very wrong, and I don't want to discourage people from thinking about
better safety devices.

Step outside this little world of soaring, and think about why the
automobile fatality rate has dropped so much over the last 50 years. The
majority of the improvement comes from safety devices like divided
highways, seat belts, crush zones, and other improvements in safety devices.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

On Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:26:49 UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> Step outside this little world of soaring, and think about why the
> automobile fatality rate has dropped so much over the last 50 years. The
> majority of the improvement comes from safety devices like divided
> highways, seat belts, crush zones, and other improvements in safety devices.
>
While this is true, Eric, I wish to point out that all but one of the devices you mention are intended to save lives "during" the ensuing crash. Only the divided highway "prevents" the crash, and that by forcibly separating the traffic flow. To my knowledge there is no existing automotive device (except my wife) that screams out, "Stupid! You're going to get us killed!!"..

On a negative side of your argument, the great decrease in fatalities has been matched by a great increase in permanent life-altering injuries. I leave it to individual discretion to determine which is personally preferable.

-John

On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:00:53 +0000, Jonathon May
> wrote:

>There are those who think the string should be slightly off center in a
>thermal turn I have heard the phrasae" get the string pointing up"from an
>old bold pilot who was flying with me.

Yup.
20 to 30 degrees in the glider that I'm flying.


Andreas

On Nov 8, 11:45*am, Westbender > wrote:
> On Nov 8, 9:44*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > I've often thought an audio yaw string would be a great idea.
> > Especially while instructing. *Maybe instead of a noise, a shot of
> > electricity to the ass would be better? *I am always amazed at how
> > many pilots are perfectly happy to fly along in a slight slip all
> > day...
>
> > Boggs
>
> Part of me wonders just how much value it would add to have an alarm
> go off just when someone is under stress turning to final at low
> altitude where it's causing them to try to skid the ship around.
>
> I'd be stating the obvious that pilots should be better trained to not
> get themselves into such situations to begin with.

My SZD55 has a mandatory (Canada) stall warning system - SP-3. It
takes pitot pressure and pressure from another hole under the nose and
uses pressure differential to work - you get a loud audio tone. It
goes off frequently in thermalling, and at the start of flilght. I
asked other 55 pilots, and they say they only really use it on the
ridge, it's off otherwise.
The system is here if you want to take a look:
http://www.olk.com.pl/indexen.php?bo=prod&prx=products&lpx=26

If you calibrated it better - which apparently is possible, though I
haven't done it, it might be your answer. OSTIV seems to like it.

On 11/11/2011 5:50 AM, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
> On Thursday, 10 November 2011 23:26:49 UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>> Step outside this little world of soaring, and think about why the
>> automobile fatality rate has dropped so much over the last 50
>> years. The majority of the improvement comes from safety devices
>> like divided highways, seat belts, crush zones, and other
>> improvements in safety devices.
>>
> While this is true, Eric, I wish to point out that all but one of the
> devices you mention are intended to save lives "during" the ensuing
> crash. Only the divided highway "prevents" the crash, and that by
> forcibly separating the traffic flow. To my knowledge there is no
> existing automotive device (except my wife) that screams out,
> "Stupid! You're going to get us killed!!".

It wasn't intended to be a definitive list, but only to point out that
safety devices can and do save lives. If you limit it to prevention
safety devices, it's still true. In gliders, examples are auto hookups
for controls and spoilers that don't suck open.

> On a negative side of your argument, the great decrease in fatalities
> has been matched by a great increase in permanent life-altering
> injuries. I leave it to individual discretion to determine which is
> personally preferable.

Are you saying the _rate_ of "permanent life-altering injuries" is
higher now than 50 years ago? I am not aware of studies showing that is
true. What I do read about is crashes with little or no injury, that
surely would've resulted in severe injuries in autos from the 50's.

In any case, I don't think the markedly improved cockpit crash
protection from the ASW 24 on has increased the rate for gliders.
Personally, I'll always choose greater crash protection, glider or car.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)